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Sam Gamgee
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Forum Issues

Post by Sam Gamgee » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:58 pm

I'm sure many of you noticed that some posts have recently been deleted. For the most part, this is a really good and civil forum, and despite our many differences we can all get along. But those posts were just getting out of hand. The conversation itself is an important one to have, but a forum is just not the right medium to have these types conversations -- it is a crucial part of communication to know the intent of the speaker in addition to the words themselves, espcially in important discussions like this, so you can tell whether they’re being belligerent or respectfully seeking answers. Online, it’s really close to impossible to do this correctly because everyone will read the wrong things into each others’ intentions and so even if the argument starts out in an earnest desire for knowledge, it will quickly degenerate into flames.

As happened here. It's ok to discuss religion and politics lightly, but in those last conversations, several people were deeply insulted, and even after he was asked to stop, the offending party continued to insult them. This is exactly the type of conversation that we really can't have on this forum unless we want to solidify our enemies and turn our happy shared love of GH into a bickering war.

I know I'm preaching to the choir - the offending party has left, and I don't think any of you went too far over the line. But I am just posting this because I thought it would be fair to letyou know know what's going on.
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Post by EIwing » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:22 pm

.... Post Nazi.



































:D
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Post by Rumpska » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:21 pm

Sam--> 8) \o \o \o \o \o
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:20 pm

Wha...????
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Post by Rumpska » Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:02 pm

It's a picture of Sam and her lesser forum nazis saluting her.
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:56 pm

Well, things are back to normal now.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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Post by theHermit » Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:15 am

Are they really? And if so, at what cost? Perhaps I missed something in that it was deleted too quickly for me to read, but I don't recall Peter the High King insulting any member of this board personally and he certainly didn't use any questionable language. He criticized Pat Robertson and anti-semitism. As far as I know, Pat isn't a member of this forum.

Steve, with all due respect, there should always be room for civil constructive debate. It's cool if you like Robertson. Peter mereley stated why he didn't like him. I don't see what this has to do with you. As I wrote to Steph, a couple of close friends of mine think Cardinal Ratzinger was the worst choice for the Church at this time. I happen to disagree with them that he was the worst choice, but we're still friends because I respect their right to disagree. Above all, I don't take it personally because it's not about me. It's about the formal Cardinal. I see the same thing in what happened here.

I've been a memeber of this community for a year now, but this past week has caused me to doubt what kind of community we really have, online or otherwise. I honestly believe the thing to do is lock threads and state why so that others may read and understand. I mean if the guy is posting porn threads are something like that then sure, erase the thread, but as far as I know that wasn't what happened. Instead, GH likely has one less fan and a guy who responded from the heart because he cared to take the time to do so has been vilified and labeled the "offending party." Please show me what Peter said that was so objectionable. I mean I'd look myself but all records have been erased. What type of community is that? If I'm wrong please show me.

It's not as though I mind not discussing subjects on this forum where people might disagree strongly, that's fine as it is GH's forum, but since the episode(s) that Sam refers to in this post have occurred I'd just like to know the whole story before it's all forgotten and we move on.
"Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;"
- from the Prayer of St. Francis

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Post by Sam Gamgee » Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:42 am

Deleting the whole thread was probably not the best decision for the time - we apologize for that. Things like this don't usually happen, so we're very prepared to deal with it it. Next time we have a different plan of action, like having a moderator lock it and delete any individual posts which were very offensive to people.

It's not that Peter started out badly - it's just that he didn't know when to stop. It went to the point where more than one person felt personally insulted. There's a difference between stating subjectively "I don't like this famous person" and giving a thorough objective statement about the worthlessness of someone whom other people greatly respect -- when asked more than once to stay off that topic. That's the main part of the problem, as I saw it. Once again, we apologize as moderators for the way we responded - we could have done a better job, stepping in sooner, warning more clearly, and the whole thread should probably have been only locked. But we can't really reverse that now. Does that make more sense? You might not agree with the decision, but we're doing our best to moderate fairly.
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By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly

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Post by theHermit » Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:43 am

I'm cool with not agreeing with the decsion to delete the thread entirely and I respect your position as mod Sam. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.
"Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;"
- from the Prayer of St. Francis

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Post by MayorOfLongview » Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:14 am

>>>Steve, with all due respect, there should always be room for civil constructive debate. It's cool if you like Robertson. >>>

Hermit,

I truly hope you stay with us. I do.

There is room here for civil constructive debate - about music, prog, Glass Hammer, Tolkien, Lewis and a host of other topics. Religion and politics? If they come up at all - lets keep it light. That is now an official request.

I, for one do not have the time nor the inclination to debate Peter on the merits or failures of a controversial religious leader. Nor do I wish that debate to be carried out on a Glass Hammer forum. Our music is rarely if ever devisive, and this forum will not become devisive either. If Peter wishes to lecture / scold me or Fred or any other member of the band who is available on this forum, he should take his chances with a private message or email. But I don't have 8 hours a day to research topics dear to his heart and then compose elaborate epistles defending my position. I am not a Jewish philosopher. I am the bassist for a prog-rock band. There is a difference. He enjoys debate, I enjoy music.

This forum can't become what progressiveears.com has become.

For one, there are children here on occasion.

Two, there are some very religious people here with a variety of traditions and opinions. There are others who aren't religious at all. Its a touchy subject with at least some from both groups. Exactly 11 Glass Hammer performers of the 12 seen on stage at Belmont would not wish to see a one sided debate of Christian fundamentalism nor its leaders carried out by philosophers or anyone else on this forum for one very simple reason that need not be stated. The 12th would probably agree as well. And not one of the 12 have the time to defend the subject properly, nor should they have to in a Glass Hammer forum.

You will find us the most tolerent and well-behaved group of people in all of prog-dom. But this forum should be a place where we should feel welcome - not defensive. Yet for now, I feel exactly that.

I'm going to ask nicely that we move on to something else more agreeable.

Steve
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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Post by theHermit » Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:07 pm

Fair enough Steve. Thank you for taking the time to be specific as it helps me to better understand where you are coming from on the issue.
"Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;"
- from the Prayer of St. Francis

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Post by SuperTed » Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:24 pm

MayorOfLongview wrote: For one, there are children here on occasion.
Yeah, and as a young lad I'm fed up listening to all you old geezers spouting off! As us hipsters say to confuse all you old squares; "Chill out, dudes! It's gnarly and bad!" (is this right?)
MayorOfLongview wrote: I'm going to ask nicely that we move on to something else more agreeable.
OK, daddio, here's one for you...If Glass Hammer are so great then where's the cowbells on your albumens? Eh...eh? And as for triangles? Don't even go there, sister!

Yours disagreeably,

S.U. Perted Jr, BSc. MSc, IDioT (Age 37 and 5 sixths)
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Post by Rumpska » Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:25 pm

"Gotta have more cowbell."

And there's the whole fever/perscription thing, but people use that too much.
:P
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Post by Geophysicist » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:28 pm

theHermit wrote:Perhaps I missed something in that it was deleted too quickly for me to read, but I don't recall Peter the High King insulting any member of this board personally and he certainly didn't use any questionable language. He criticized Pat Robertson and anti-semitism. As far as I know, Pat isn't a member of this forum.
It was deleted pretty quickly for me, too, especially at my advanced age. But I was one of the last responders to Peter, so I have some memory of what was written. I pulled a quote from one of his posts that referred to Robertson and the army of idiots that fill up stadium-sized churchs to hear him, and then I posted a 'look into the mirror, first' comment. Regardless of what you think of Robertson, this ad hominem against him and all of his followers was uncalled for.

Peter also specifically launched an ad hominem against a forum member who had replied in earnest to one of his points, advising the member to read his (Peter's) tagline. The tagline was a quote critical of people who unthinkingly believe everything their leaders say.

I applaud the moderators for taking action when the discussion had gone too far beyond the bounds of civility. I am new to this forum thingummy, so I don't know if pulling or locking is the better solution. But I think the discussion had reached the point where it was causing more pain than gain.

Gee, I hope it wasn't my comment that got the thread pulled...
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Post by Losfer Words » Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:47 pm

"Very well I see where this is leading, Bilbo the silly hobbit started this mess and he may as well finish it too" (takes the ring and runs towards Mt. Doom)

As the person who started the thread that got yanked I say "Thank you Sam "Wise" Gamgee!"

The post which was originally intended to be something positive simply about lyrics that commented on what is wrong with "commercialized Christmas" and it rapidly dwindled off topic into a silly religious debate over whether or not one can tell the condition of a well known recording artist's salvation merely from his lyrics. I wasn't trying to say the said artists was a Christian, but simply point the old Grinch realization that "Christmas doesn't come from a store". And it was sad to see something that was intended to be light hearted and positive dwindle into name calling.

In my opinion only God knows that state of our souls and only God is qualified to make such judgments regarding the state of anyone's soul (now please don't let that comment erupt into another debate- that's not what I want)

So deleting the whole thread WAS the best decision in my opinion. This isn't the place to have such debates and I apologize to everyone for starting the post and for being stupid enough :banghead: to get pulled off topic from my original intent and caught up in the debate that erupted.

So in the words of that great theologian and philosopher Linus Van Pelt, the lesson learned is "there are three things I have learned to NEVER discuss with people, politics, religion and THE GREAT PUMPKIN!"

:D carry on!

David

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