"We are losing the city"

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theHermit
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Post by theHermit » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:17 pm

Cool. Thank you.

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Post by Geophysicist » Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:21 pm

2 Glorious wrote:
Geophysicist wrote:I have been out of the country, and have only heard some of the details, but I lived in New Orleans for five years and had to make hurricane decistions on the fly."
Sorry that this thread went off topic.

How long has it been since you lived in NO? I hope your friends are okay! I don't suppose you've heard anything yet?
I haven't lived in NO since 1986, but I occasionally have reason to pass that way (usually business). All of my friends have checked in except one, who lives in Slidell.
If I hadn't believed it, I wouldn't have seen it.
(An old geologist's saw)

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Post by Boromir » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:03 pm

2glorious wrote:As far as what Franklin Graham said, I don't think he would say anything he didn't believe. Maybe it wasn't this way when you were small, but I remember prayers in public school when I was in elementary school. The Pledge of Allegience was a daily routine as well. It wasn't a government mandate that we pray in school, it was our right, our freedom of religion. It was a reflection of the mindset of the community the area school represented.

Now, my son doesn't have that right without the threat of being expelled. The community where I live is mostly Christian, yet the government mandate now is to expel God from school. See the point FG was trying to make? The AP report you quoted might have taken Mr. Graham out of context because I know what FG believes and I understand what he meant.

Welcome 2 Glorious; The comments about FG were actually mine, so i will take the liberty of jumping in on your discussion here.

Now i do not disagree with you or with FG according to the content of what was said. In point of fact i mostly agree. I would only add that our present condition can be traced much further back than just to the 1960s when God was expelled from our classrooms. I might recommend to you William J Murray's book, My Life Without God, for further support of your sound position.

I have not the least bit of misunderstanding about what FG said. I only question the wisdom of having utilized this tragedy to point up an obvious fact of historical significance to the church. I also believe, as stated before, that FG was insensitive and opportunistic in his comments and that therefore he most certainly does owe an apology to the people of the Gulf Coast for his insensitivity in this instance.

2glorious wrote:I am not sure by your comments of your religious persuasion, Hermit, but from a Christian perspective, the consequences of excluding God and the morals attributed to God are dire and may, in fact, be the reason you see the gang violence and lack of morality running rampant in the streets of NO. To say that Franklin Graham owes anyone an apology for saying what he believes to be true is robbing him from his freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
FG is free to speak freely. I am equally free to speak in response, however. And i firmly believe that his comments were inappropriate in the context of this disaster.

Oh and btw; i am a conservative evangelical 'prot.' I would also say that i don't agree with an insensitivity toward the poor as branching off from Calvinism; but rather see it as a direct offshoot of the Word of Faith or Prosperity heresy, which if i understand my history correctly is actually rooted in the Arminian tradition. But then that's a whole 'nother discussion aint it? :shock:
...with these gasoline prices we can't afford not to buy a pony....

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Post by 2 Glorious » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:42 pm

Now i do not disagree with you or with FG according to the content of what was said. In point of fact i mostly agree. I would only add that our present condition can be traced much further back than just to the 1960s when God was expelled from our classrooms. I might recommend to you William J Murray's book, My Life Without God, for further support of your sound position.


Hello Boromir!

Oh, yes I know. I was perhaps too focused on my personal experience alone when I made that point. I will check out Murray's book! Thanks for the recommendation. :)

FG is free to speak freely. I am equally free to speak in response, however. And i firmly believe that his comments were inappropriate in the context of this disaster.


Of course you are. I was surprised to hear that FG would have been insensitive because other times I have seen him, although very direct, he didn't appear to lack grace. I suppose if his comments offended some, then it was certainly offensive. My bad. Please forgive me if I seemed defensive.

but rather see it as a direct offshoot of the Word of Faith or Prosperity heresy, which if i understand my history correctly is actually rooted in the Arminian tradition.


Another topic altogether for sure. I am happy to have been spared having to go through breaking out of a heretical church. The particular heresies you mentioned are so deceptive and destructive. People involved with those "movements" have such a hard time when they find out that it isn't what it was represented to be. It's so sad, isn't it?
Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy needs to be answered. - C.S. Lewis

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Post by 2 Glorious » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:45 pm

I haven't lived in NO since 1986, but I occasionally have reason to pass that way (usually business). All of my friends have checked in except one, who lives in Slidell.
Oh, I hope the best for your friend. Slidell was certainly hit very hard. Luckily the others have checked in. I hope they are able to get back on their feet very soon.
Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy needs to be answered. - C.S. Lewis

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Post by Bogatyr » Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:26 am

Boromir wrote: I would also say that i don't agree with an insensitivity toward the poor as branching off from Calvinism; but rather see it as a direct offshoot of the Word of Faith or Prosperity heresy
And I would also add that the leaders of those movements (Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, et al) frequently travel to third world countries such as India on "evangelistic crusades". They're little more than shakedowns of the poor and wretched with a little bit of religious window dressing on top. These snake oil salesmen make the same disgusting pitch they do here, take collections from the people in the form of "love offerings", and once the money dries out, they leave. They heap guilt on these poor souls for their condition, convince them the only way out is to pay up right then and there to prove their faith, and laugh all the way to the bank. This is what passes for Christianity in the minds of many over there, because that's all they see. I shudder at the thought of what ruin to the Gospel these hucksters have wrought.
Wheee!

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Post by theHermit » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:18 pm

The entire "prosperity gospel" makes me queezy in the gut. It just runs contrary to the example and words of Jesus. Another reason I like the Franciscans (and Poor Clare's). These folk understand the context of the poverty of Christ on earth and bear witness to this in the world.
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where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;"
- from the Prayer of St. Francis

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Operation Blessing and the Wittenburg Door

Post by Boromir » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:44 am

OB is a division of Pat Robertson's organization. Hmm; is this a whoops on my part? Well, he did encourage giving to the relief effort, while a more orthodox Evangelical icon (FG) rammed both feet down his own throat. :shock:

Check out this week's Wittenburg Door Insider for some timely comic relief.

http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/newsletter/index.html
...with these gasoline prices we can't afford not to buy a pony....

-Homer Simpson

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Post by MayorOfLongview » Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:38 am

From what I've seen, Pat has mobilized a huge effort to feed the folks in Slidell - not sure where else. My own church is sending out teams starting today. Susan Hawkins (viola for Glass Hammer) will be among them.
I still think that FG's comments were directed at the looting and the rape, not the disaster. The 'gay' area of town was spared - which wouldn't make much sense were this a God-directed judgement on New Oreans - at least from the perspective of 'some' of the religious.
Steve 8)
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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Post by santakauz » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:46 pm

I must say, this is one of the only intelligent and fair discussions I have seen of the N.O. situation. Thanks all, it's people like you that keep my faith in humanity alive!

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Post by MayorOfLongview » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:26 am

I checked up on the comments by Franklin Graham. From what I saw, he was commenting only on the looting and the rape. He said...

"This happens in our country when we have taken God out of our schools and God out of our, out of society. We don't have a moral standard,"

In a related story, I read today that N.O. was much like the U.S. entry into Bagdad in the opening days of the war. Gangs were actually brought in from Memphis and Dallas, and fought turf wars in the streets killing many. Many of the bodies found have either been shot or worse.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=46373
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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