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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:57 pm

No, the last ship already left. Legolas is stuck on Middle Earth, as is Sam and Gimli. If not, why did Celeborn get on that ship? he wasn't suppsoed to go until later. i think Jackson doesn't want to deal with the confusion of having to explain that there are still more people who sail.

I love the Scouring of the Shire. It shows you how much the hobbits have grown. It was a little annoying to read this past time, with the majestic climax of the battle of the pelennor fields, but that's because I was reading it all in one sitting, and also because (as i have recently discovered) I don't like hobbits. I love the hobbit heroes, like sam and frodo and merry and pippin and bilbo, but the stupid, clueless, and underacheiving hobbits get really annoying. What's so good about the Shire, anyway? A friend of mine answered the question with this: hobbits are the only ones in the history of middle earth who have never deliberately killed each other. So that definately counts for something. But they still kind of bother me.

I don't think PJ should do that in his movie though. Definitely have more hobbits at the end, but doing the scouring would take up a much larger percent of the movie than the chapter in the book, and it just wouldn't work very well cinematically.
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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:05 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:No, the last ship already left. Legolas is stuck on Middle Earth, as is Sam and Gimli. If not, why did Celeborn get on that ship? he wasn't suppsoed to go until later. i think Jackson doesn't want to deal with the confusion of having to explain that there are still more people who sail.
I think I am confused. Legolas and Gimli set sail together from the Anduin. As for Sam it is never "confirmed" he went into the West, he was last seen alone at the tower hills by his daughter. The "tradition" is that he went. In the movie that is the last ship to leave ME from the Grey Havens (for valinor). (Could be mistaken about the phrasing, don't remember exactly what was said). Yes, it would be for simplicity sake. Can you imagine the mass exodus it would have required to get all the elves out of ME in 4 years? And all the boats that would have to have been built?
Sam Gamgee wrote:I love the Scouring of the Shire. It shows you how much the hobbits have grown. It was a little annoying...I don't like hobbits.
Well, don't forget most of the population of ME is like that. More men were fighting for Sauron than Gondor. The Hobbits, like everyone else, are stuck in their own world. A good example of this would be Nargothrond and Doriath. At the Arnoediad they trusted in their secrecy and power and did not go to the Battle because they had a "why should we" attitude. They didn't see the big picture. Hobbits are the same way. So you have to not like the elves if you don't like the Hobbits for that reason.
Sam Gamgee wrote:What's so good about the Shire, anyway? A friend of mine answered the question with this: hobbits are the only ones in the history of middle earth who have never deliberately killed each other. So that definately counts for something.
Well, the Pipeweed for one. ;)
Along the lines of what your friend said, they are the only race to maintain their innocence. But it was at the expense or sacrifice of others. They were protected from the Gathering Dark by Gandalf and the Dunedain.
Sam Gamgee wrote:I don't think PJ should do that in his movie though. Definitely have more hobbits at the end, but doing the scouring would take up a much larger percent of the movie than the chapter in the book, and it just wouldn't work very well cinematically.
Well, He's dug himself a hole. Without totally changing the ending (which I wouldn't object to) he can't do it. The Shire is green and bustling when they return. Not overrun and burnt by big folk. But, were do Saruman and Wormy get off to?
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:19 pm

SPOILER WARNING!
In a seven minute cut scene, Saruman is killed by Grima, stabbed in the back and pushed off Orthanc onto the infamous Spikey Wheel. Legolas then shoots Grima. At Isengard. That's it. Dissapointing, huh?
END SPOILERS
I'm a Sil fan, not as much LotR - "hobbit talk" as jrrt would call it, bores me. (As it did his two main critics, Rayner ?Unwin and C.S. Lewis, who said that hobbits are only interesting when outside a hobbitlike situation. I agree.) Oh well, each to his own. Yes, I know elves are flawed. Stop depressing me now! I know no one race is perfect. I'm mainly talking about the heroes, like Fingolfin, Gil-Galad, Elrond, and Galadriel, and all the others. I'm looking at the half-full glass, not the half-empty one.
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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:37 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:I'm mainly talking about the heroes, like Fingolfin, Gil-Galad, Elrond, and Galadriel, and all the others. I'm looking at the half-full glass, not the half-empty one.
Well even they can be half-empty. (huh?)

Galadriel, for example. Left Valinor because she wanted a kingdom of her own, which she finally found in Lorien, ruling a bunch of rustic wood elves. (I don't mean to be too irreverant)

Most of Tolkien's heros are very classical gothic heros (they have a dark side). Usually pride of some sort.
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:23 pm

That's exactly what I mean! I'm trying to be an optimist about heroes, faults, and life in M-E in general, and you're making it very difficult! Just stop, now. ;)

Actually, the story of Galadriel changed. Tolkien never had a chance to finish it before he died, but she left at a seperate time than Feänor and Co. I can't remember why. She left with Celeborn. (Of course, this was the version where Celeborn lived in Valinor too, not the version where Celeborn lived in Nargothrond.)
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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:43 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:she left at a seperate time than Feänor and Co. I can't remember why. She left with Celeborn..
Well, in the Sil she crosses the Grinding Ice. She didn't go with Feanor because she didn't get on the ships.
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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:55 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:That's exactly what I mean! I'm trying to be an optimist about heroes, faults, and life in M-E in general, and you're making it very difficult! Just stop, now. ;)
I think that is one of the things that makes tolkien great. In other stories, heroes are so flat, like they have no emotion, no internal conflict, no regret.
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:26 pm

:? I just can't express myself properly, can I? I know these people have character depth. (Not all of Tolkien's heroes have faults, while some of them do, yet all of them have character depth. That's awesome. I love that mix. You need both.) Just never mind. It's not a big deal anyway.
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:32 pm

BTW, you are the fastest growing newbie I've ever seen. Your post average is 30.5 a day! Yikes! (I mean, it helps that there are a lot of people to talk now, but still.) And we've been at this all day, checking the forum every hour and constantly finding something new...

Gosh, all you need is the sacred color and people are going to start thinking you're a character I made up like poor Fingolfin!
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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:56 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:BTW, you are the fastest growing newbie I've ever seen. Your post average is 30.5 a day! Yikes! (I mean, it helps that there are a lot of people to talk now, but still.) And we've been at this all day, checking the forum every hour and constantly finding something new...
Well, working at home and having a relatively light work load can do that for you. But the current topics of conversation seem to be winding down, and it is mostly you and I anyway. I'll have to come up with something really flame worthy to post about. Hmmmm.

Balrog wings? Why does the Mouth of Sauron say so if Sauron doesn't allow his name to be spoken? Why does the Gate say Moria and not Khazadum? Who's older Tom B. or Treebeard?

One of those should do.
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Post by Theremin » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:11 am

Gosh, all you need is the sacred color and people are going to start thinking you're a character I made up like poor Fingolfin!
What do you mean :? . What ever happened to old Fingy anyway? I actually have more posts than him. Somehow, that doesn't seem right. :eyebrow:
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
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If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?

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Post by Bnielsen » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:58 pm

A Shadow and a Doubt has been growing in my mind as well....
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:21 pm

Same old questions... You've been to the Tolkien Sarcasm page, haven't you?

The Tom Bombadil thing is easy - he's older, because he's a Maia creature thing. Sort of. We assume. He is meant to be an enigma, but whatever. He's kind of like the spirit of nature or something, i've heard, and in any case, he's not a mortal creature like Treebeard. So Treebeard is the oldest creature.

the Balrog Wing thing can't be definitively answered, so I hate going into it. I refuse to go there.

Moria vs. Khazad-Dûm: the general consesus is that Tolkien made a mistake. When he illustrated the doors, he hadn't yet decided that it was a name "given without love". Or if you wanted to pretend like Tolkien is above all names, you could say that it was a joke of the Noldor, and it had been called that so long nobody noticed anymore.

Not only the Mouth of Sauron, but the messenger to Daín uses the name Sauron. So apparently, either Tolkien makes mistakes, or Aragorn does.

And how bout this one? Why does Cirdan have a beard? (i know this one, too!)

BTW, nice color, josh. ;) And love the eyebrow face, theremin...
Last edited by Sam Gamgee on Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Fingolfin » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:22 pm

I'm just too good for you. That's all.

Oh, and unlike Sam, I actually have a life. :eyebrow:
Fingolfin beheld the ruin of the Noldor. Filled with wrath and despair he rode forth alone. A madness of rage was upon him; his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
He came alone to Angband and challenged Morgoth to single combat.

And Morgoth came.

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Post by idoron » Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:51 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:Same old questions... You've been to the Tolkien Sarcasm page, haven't you?
Of course, but those questions are older than the tolkien sarcasm page, quite thoroghly discussed everywhere.

I didn't mean for you to answer them, just messing around. Very familiar with the discussion around them.

I don't know if it is on the tolkien saracsm page or not, but have you seen the Balrog fuzzy slipper debate?
Sam Gamgee wrote:Bombadil...he's older...So Treebeard is the oldest
Make up your mind. :wink:
Sam Gamgee wrote:And how bout this one? Why does Cirdan have a beard? (i know this one, too!)
Or, who was Gil-galad's father? That one does have a cononical answer, though.

How about this: who is the mother of Durin the Deathless' son?
Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold;
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