Gothmog?

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Gothmog?

Post by Belithraldor » Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:20 pm

I admit I haven't read the books for years and years. But, I remember Gothmog being a balrog. I don't remember him being an orc from the bettele at Pellennor Fields. Can someone elaborate?

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Re: Gothmog?

Post by MayorOfLongview » Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:49 pm

Belithraldor wrote:I admit I haven't read the books for years and years. But, I remember Gothmog being a balrog. I don't remember him being an orc from the bettele at Pellennor Fields. Can someone elaborate?


I'm not sure if they ever actually said what he was. I just remember the name. Sam will know!
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:01 pm

Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs is the one who killed Fëanor, I believe. But in the context of Jackson's work, Gothmog is the name they gave to "Mr. Puffycakes", the leader of the Pelennor Fields Invasion. You know, the one with the face that looks like a puffcorn? Yeah, him. I have no idea why they're pulling out such random names... I mean Aragorn's horse (the one that gives him horsey kisses that he thought was Arwen) is named after a king of Rohan... And that one little boy at Helm's Deep is named after an ancient female human clan leader... I guess Jackson didn't want to pay David Salo enough to invent new names or something.
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Post by Belithraldor » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:22 pm

Makes sense...

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Post by Bnielsen » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:24 pm

maybe it was his way of paying omage to the rest of the books info
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Post by Belithraldor » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:29 pm

Bnielsen wrote:maybe it was his way of paying omage to the rest of the books info


I kind of think that as well. Especially because he omitted Tom Bombadil from the entire movie; yet doesn't Trebeard say something that Tom actualy said in the book?

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Post by MayorOfLongview » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:47 pm

Belithraldor wrote:
Bnielsen wrote:maybe it was his way of paying omage to the rest of the books info


I kind of think that as well. Especially because he omitted Tom Bombadil from the entire movie; yet doesn't Trebeard say something that Tom actualy said in the book?


I know that Gollum quotes a Barrow Wight poem in the Dead Marshes.
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:49 pm

Okay, here entry two from my Guide To ME.

Gothmog: The lieutenant of Minas Morgul and commander of Sauron's army during the Batle of the Pelennor Fields after the fall of the Lord of the Nazgul. Gothmog may have been a Nazgul.

Glad to be of help.
Steve
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:56 pm

A Nazgul? Are you sure? Because the only two names we know for Nazgul are the Witch King of Angmar, and Khamûl his second in command, the only two who (if I recall) weren't afraid of water (if not for their leadership, the Nazgul may not have chased Frodo across the Ford)...
*looks it up* Yes. So in the Sil index it says Gothmog was indeed lord of the Balrogs, high-captain of Angmar, slayer of Fëanor, Fingon, and Ecthelion, but apparently the name was also born by lieutenant of Minas Morgul. According to the LotR index he's mentioned once, on p. 135 of Rotk: "...new strength now came streaming to the field of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had lung them into the fray..." So there you have it. Both a Balrog and a lieutenant, not a Nazgul, but obviously important enough that he's the Witch King's second in command for this particular army. So, more than you'd ever want to know. That's what I'm here for... ;)
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:16 pm

Was he one and the same? Or might the name apply to two different creatures. Remember that Grond makes an appearance in the Sil, and at the Battle for Minas Tirith. Once as a werewolf (me thinks) in the Sil, and as a battering ram at Minas Tirith. I'm not sure if its in the books, but in the movie, Grond has the head of a wolf.
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Post by Belithraldor » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:40 am

What a great forum this is!!! Thanks for the dialogue everyone. I am enjoying this!

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Post by Sam Gamgee » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:38 am

Sorry, tht wasn't very clear, was it? I meant that I was agreeing Gothmog was two different people.

I don't have the books with me at the moment, but I am pretty sure the thing did have the head of a wolf. Or at the very least, that he was some sort of possessed demon beast thing - not just a big log. :lol:

(and I'm enjoying this too! Tolkien + Glass Hammer is just too cool for words... 8)
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Post by Belithraldor » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:56 am

I got this from the Enciclopedia of Arda...

"The most powerful of all the Balrogs, one of the chief servants of Melkor, who held an authority hardly less than Sauron himself. A wily commander and fearsome fighter, Gothmog was often accompanied by others of his fiery kind, and at least in the Nirnaeth he had a personal guard of dozens of trolls. His weapon was a great black axe.

The Elves first encountered him in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, the battle fought under the stars before the first rising of the Moon. In that battle, Fëanor's fury had caused him to draw forward of the main force of the Noldor, and so he came upon Gothmog with only a small guard. Even so, he fought valiantly, and though the armies of the Noldor eventually drove the Balrogs off, Fëanor's wounds could not be healed.

After that first battle, Gothmog does not appear for several centuries. He emerged from Angband to fight in the battle known as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the fifth and last battle of the Wars of Beleriand. He brought up a huge army, and drove aside the forces around High King Fingon, and slew the King with his axe. His trolls assailed Fingon's ally Húrin, who he eventually captured and brought back to Angband.

But Gothmog was not indestructible. He took part in (and indeed presumably led) Morgoth's deadly surprise assault on the Hidden City of Gondolin. In the square of the King in the heart of the city, he came upon the Elf-lord Ecthelion of the Fountain. They fought a great duel, and in the end Gothmog and Ecthelion slew one another. So ended one of the most feared denizens of the pits of Angband.


Notes
1 'Voice of (Mor)goth' and 'Black Master' are two others. This derivation is difficult, because Tolkien himself seems to have been uncertain of the meaning of the name - all those given here are taken from volume 5 of The History of Middle-earth. (The History of Middle-earth Volume 5, The Lost Road and Other Writings III The Etymologies and Appendix II The List of Names)."


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Post by Sam Gamgee » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:17 am

Um, yeah, uh, that's what I was just about to say. You stole the words right out of my mouth. Uh, yeah. ;) (thanks for the info! clever of you to go to a resource like that - never crossed my mind! :P)
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Post by Belithraldor » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:55 am

I do what I can.... 8)

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