An inconsicent association

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TheMarsh-WiggleQuester
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An inconsicent association

Post by TheMarsh-WiggleQuester » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:22 pm

I was listening to Sun Song, and reading the lyrics to get all of the song, and the story just lead me to that of young prophet Samuel, when he was in the temple with Eli and heard the voice of God, told in the Bible in I Samuel.

The song, as told by the "sire", being so skeptical in the begining, just like Eli that ordered the young boy to get back 3 times to bed till he understanded that was the voice of God. It strikes me in this part:

"He who made the sunlight
Bidding us to sing along "


I am travelling far away from the purpose? :roll: :?:

PS: BTW, this song rocks a lot, love the vocals in the end...!
[i]"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."[/i]
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Re: An inconsicent association

Post by MayorOfLongview » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:21 pm

Well, I never made that connection till just now. But that's a cool thought.
My son actually claimed to hear the moon singing outside his window - or at least asked me if the moon could sing. He heard it one night, and then on one other occasion. (Remember he was 5). With his permission, I used his story but replaced the moon with the sun. It could have been Moon Song, but might have lost much of its Christian-allegorical possibilities.

As as for the moon singing, I like to think that it does. Maybe it was a train or something on the freeway. In the book of Job we find the stars singing - so why not?
Steve


TheMarsh-WiggleQuester wrote:I was listening to Sun Song, and reading the lyrics to get all of the song, and the story just lead me to that of young prophet Samuel, when he was in the temple with Eli and heard the voice of God, told in the Bible in I Samuel.

The song, as told by the "sire", being so skeptical in the begining, just like Eli that ordered the young boy to get back 3 times to bed till he understanded that was the voice of God. It strikes me in this part:

"He who made the sunlight
Bidding us to sing along "


I am travelling far away from the purpose? :roll: :?:

PS: BTW, this song rocks a lot, love the vocals in the end...!
8)
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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Post by TheMarsh-WiggleQuester » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:19 pm

Cool story! And if ya changed SUN for MOON the mood of the song could be another, but like Aslan said:

"We will never know what could have happened"

Thanks Steve!

Godspeed.
[i]"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."[/i]
[b]C. S. Lewis[/b]

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Post by asbury » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:23 pm

My first post by the way, though I've been a long time lurker ...


Sun Song is one of my favorite GH songs. Musically, it would have been a favorite anyway, but the lyrics are great. I love how the wonder of creation is captured -- and how it all points to a Creator. It reminds me of a favorite passage from Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton:
All the towering materialism which dominates the modern mind rests ultimately upon one assumption; a false assumption. It is supposed that if a thing goes on repeating itself it is probably dead; a piece of clockwork. People feel that if the universe was personal it would vary; if the sun were alive it would dance.
... or sing ...
This is a fallacy even in relation to known fact. For the variation in human affairs is generally brought into them, not by life, but by death; by the dying down or breaking off of their strength or desire ... The sun rises every morning. I do not rise every morning; but the variation is due not to my activity, but to my inaction. Now, to put the matter in a popular phrase, it might be true that the sun rises regularly because he never gets tired of rising. His routine might be due, not to a lifelessness, but to a rush of life. The thing I mean can be seen, for instance, in children, when they find some game or joke that they specially enjoy. A child kicks his legs rhythmically through excess, not absence, of life. Because children have abounding vitality, because they are in spirit fierce and free, therefore they want things repeated and unchanged. They always say, "Do it again"; and the grown-up person does it again until he is nearly dead. For grown-up people are not strong enough to exult in monotony. But perhaps God is strong enough to exult in monotony. It is possible that God says every morning, "Do it again" to the sun; and every evening, "Do it again" to the moon. It may not be automatic necessity that makes all daisies alike; it may be that God makes every daisy separately, but has never got tired of making them. It may be that He has the eternal appetite of infancy; for we have sinned and grown old, and our Father is younger than we. The repetition in Nature may not be a mere recurrence; it may be a theatrical ENCORE.

I think it is interesting that Chesterton links age with sin -- the two "meditations on a theme" in Sun Song also deal with age. The first is a memory before the Fall, when we were "young"; in the second we have grown old and we are striving to recapture what has been lost.

So, since I can't help but think of this passage when I listen to the song -- which is often -- I thought I would share it.

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Post by FredProgGH » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:01 pm

That's pretty cool 8)
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Post by Physicist » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:34 am

asbury wrote:I think it is interesting that Chesterton links age with sin -- the two "meditations on a theme" in Sun Song also deal with age. The first is a memory before the Fall, when we were "young"; in the second we have grown old and we are striving to recapture what has been lost.

So, since I can't help but think of this passage when I listen to the song -- which is often -- I thought I would share it.
Wonderful post. Chesterton was a subtle and profound thinker. His book 'The Man Who was Thursday' completely fooled me at every turn. It was a joy to read.

Your thoughts also bring to mind the idea that sprang from Kepler's precise solution to planetary motion and the time relations of the orbits--Music of the Spheres. Music comes from minds full of life (like Babb and Schendel) not from chance.

Finally, regarding age and sin, Solomon's thoughts in Ecclesiastes are completely in line with this. He is looking back on everything that he has experienced (and he had everything an earthly man could want) and lamenting his loss of the state 'before the fall.'
"If I hadn't believed it, I wouldn't have seen it." -- Old Geologist's saw

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Post by Bnielsen » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:26 pm

wow guys, thanks for the posts! that's some great insight!

Stick around- we need some people with fresh ideas and perspective around.

Ask lots of questions too =p
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Post by TheMarsh-WiggleQuester » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:55 pm

Gee! After all this I think I get deep in Chesterton works, rellay liked his line of thinking, and amazed by the people I've just found here.

Thats the motive that I love so much GH music, and the form they make ther music, and the kind of people that listen to it, not just listening but thinking too [much =)].

I think I'll post more here to forth.
[i]"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."[/i]
[b]C. S. Lewis[/b]

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Post by asbury » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:53 pm

Physicist wrote: Chesterton was a subtle and profound thinker. His book 'The Man Who was Thursday' completely fooled me at every turn. It was a joy to read.
The Man Who Was Thursday is my favorite book. I just read it again for the 4th or 5th time a couple of weeks ago. I can't say that I understand it more each time, but I certainly do enjoy it more at least. :D
Physicist wrote: Your thoughts also bring to mind the idea that sprang from Kepler's precise solution to planetary motion and the time relations of the orbits--Music of the Spheres. Music comes from minds full of life (like Babb and Schendel) not from chance.
That's a really cool thought! I've never heard it before.
Physicist wrote: Finally, regarding age and sin, Solomon's thoughts in Ecclesiastes are completely in line with this. He is looking back on everything that he has experienced (and he had everything an earthly man could want) and lamenting his loss of the state 'before the fall.'
Good point. Makes me want to read Ecclesiastes again.

Thanks for the reply.

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Post by Physicist » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:08 am

asbury wrote:
Physicist wrote:The Man Who Was Thursday is my favorite book. I just read it again for the 4th or 5th time a couple of weeks ago. I can't say that I understand it more each time, but I certainly do enjoy it more at least. :D
I know exactly what you mean. I have read it three times, but I feel like I am due to start number four. I pick up more each time--but that doesn't mean I will understand it all when I finish...

I have vague memories of C. S. Lewis borrowing heavily from The Man Who Was Thursday in a particular scene in the third book of his Ransom trilogy, That Hideous Strength. I'm a bit fuzzy on the recollection, because I haven't read that one since some time in the 70s. I need to read it again. I keep reading the first two, which are wonderful books, and then I hesitate at the heaviness of the third. Lewis was prophetic in many ways about where he saw western society heading.

If anyone wants to get taken for a unique ride, read The Man Who Was Thursday.
"If I hadn't believed it, I wouldn't have seen it." -- Old Geologist's saw

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Post by MayorOfLongview » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:21 pm

There is much in this vein ( lyrically ) on Culture if you look for it. I can't describe or comment on it as intelligently as some of you (which is why I say what I say with lyrics and a lot of complicated music to drive home the point).
But I do think we have some 'Eden' in our DNA, and "Eternity" planted in our hearts. From Ecclesiastes: “He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.” (3:11)

From our song "Life By Light"
Remembered at last
Desire
A spark from our past
A fire
That rose from our midst
And left us longing

At times we see it almost clearly
At times it fades before our eyes
The glimpse withdrawn
The world turns common
It’s out of reach
Until we name it


And probably the most important lines from that song...

If it can be longed for surely
Surely it must exist
Climb with me till we see those heights
They must exist
They must exist

Longing, sweet desire
If we search for something not of earth
Then we search out this cold rock in vain.



More to ponder! Thanks for the posts :)
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Post by asbury » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:13 pm

Physicist wrote: I have vague memories of C. S. Lewis borrowing heavily from The Man Who Was Thursday in a particular scene in the third book of his Ransom trilogy, That Hideous Strength. I'm a bit fuzzy on the recollection, because I haven't read that one since some time in the 70s. I need to read it again. I keep reading the first two, which are wonderful books, and then I hesitate at the heaviness of the third. Lewis was prophetic in many ways about where he saw western society heading.
Lewis is great. I read the first two of the trilogy, but never got around to the third -- now I'll have to read it. It is interesting that there is a Chesterton connection in That Hideous Strength; Perelandra has a scene that is reminiscent of Chesterton's The Napoleon of Notting Hill.

MayorOfLongview wrote: which is why I say what I say with lyrics and a lot of complicated music to drive home the point
That's a much more enjoyable form to receive it in :D

Thanks for talking about "Life By Light". It is always fun to try to figure out what motivates a song; this is a new thing to get the inside scoop :D

Do you and Fred generally like to talk in-depth about things you have written? Or do you sometimes feel like you said everything you wanted to in the song and you leave it up to the listener to draw their own conclusions?

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Post by Physicist » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:12 am

MayorOfLongview wrote:And probably the most important lines from that song...

If it can be longed for surely
Surely it must exist
Climb with me till we see those heights
They must exist
They must exist

Longing, sweet desire
If we search for something not of earth
Then we search out this cold rock in vain.



More to ponder! Thanks for the posts :)
This is really getting interesting. I was just reading an paper on the ongoing debate about cosmological models, which put two Bible verses back-to-back:

‘For the invisible things of him from the creation
of the world are clearly seen, being understood
by the things that are made, even his eternal power
and Godhead; so that they are without excuse’
(Rom. 1:20, KJV).


‘And I set my heart to seek and search out by
wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven;
this burdensome task God has given to the sons of
man, by which they may be exercised’ (Eccl. 1:13,
NKJV).


The first verse tells us that God is rational, He has made a rational universe, and man, being made in His image, can understand many of these things.

It is planted in our hearts.

The second verse tells us that we are called to seek this wisdom, which is a burden to us.

When I think of what Solomon was referring to in this verse in Ecclesiastes, I think of trying to understand the Trinity (or the scale of the cosmos, or the quantity of information required to make a person). We are called to ponder these things, which are imponderable to our finite minds. I think about these things often, and always end up burdened by the hard work, and nowhere nearer to understanding the concept. Kind of makes my brain hurt...

But the other outcome is an increasing reverence for the Author of these things, a mind that is infinitely beyond us.

asbury mentioned (and others added) that we also have a built in longing for that time when we were young before the fall, or looking ahead, to a new heaven and a new earth that are not corrupted, and will never wear out.

Surely it must exist.

Great thoughts from all, although the Mayor has an unfair advantage on understanding the lyrics. But then the beauty of lyrics and a lot of complicated music are what draw us to this forum.
"If I hadn't believed it, I wouldn't have seen it." -- Old Geologist's saw

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Post by MayorOfLongview » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:06 pm

Yet still, from time to time, vague and forlorn,
From soul's subterranean depth upborne
As from an infinitely distant land,
Come airs, and floating echoes, and convey
A melancholy into all our day.

Matthew Arnold


We long for something we never had or have never experienced, and cannot quite name. Its also referred to as "The Inconsolable Secret". In my case, I've put my faith in Christ - that this longing will be satisfied in another life - and not through any works of my own.

I, as others, have tried to satisfy it in a number of ways and always end up with either a glimpse of it (as in "Having Caught A Glimpse), or nothing at all. But I'm a hopeless romantic (as our soldier in Lex Rex) and I'll keep hunting those glimpses.

Now you may see that much of my lyric-writing always comes back to the same place.

My hope was always that the lyrics would raise the questions, and the music would soar at just the right moment to provide a thrill - not quite of this earth. Which might lead the listener further along the trail of longing till at last he or she realizes the answer is not here; the fulfillment not within.

This is the very thing which "Awaken" by Yes did to me. I had the privilege of talking to Jon Anderson face to face in his studio about how that song was written. Other than technical details - he admits that the band was not actually capable of writing it and that some other force was at work. Awaken 'transcended' the parts and even the whole of Yes - and that is God at work through art - pure and simple.

Thanks again to all for the depth of your discussion. It keeps me going!

Steve
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:21 pm

Chesterton is awesome. The question of beauty and its call to transcendence has always fascinated me. Maybe partially in an academic way, but mostly I think I just want to become a part of it, gazing in wondering awe - forevermore (as it has been ;)). As long as we're sharing good quotes on the subject, here's some interesting ones that I've come across, about otherness and inner longing and the inconsolable secret...

“Alas, how men by blindness led
Go from the path astray.
Who looks on spreading boughs for gold,
On vines for jewels gay?
Who hides his nets on mountain tops
For a board with fish high piled?
Who sails his boat upon the sea
To hunt the she-goat wild?
The very ocean’s depths men know
Beneath the waves on high;
They know which strand is rich with pearls,
Which shores with purple dye;
They know the bays for tender fish
For shellfish where to try.
But in their blindness men know not
Where lies the good they seek:
That which is higher than the sky
On earth below they seek.
What can I wish you foolish men?
Wealth and fame pursue.
And when your toil false good has won,
Then may you see the true!”


-Boethius, The Consolation of Philosophy


"We want to get behind beauty, but it is only a surface. It is like a mirror that sends us back to our own desire for goodness... We would like to feed upon it, but it is merely something to look at; it appears only from a certain distance.
Simone Weil

"A moment of grace lies in all beauty: it shows itself to me far beyond what I have a right to expect, which is why we feel astonishment and admiration."
-Hans Urs von Balthasar


“I see man’s mind cannot be satisfied
unless it be illumined by that Truth
beyond which there exists no other truth.

Within that Truth, once man’s mind reaches it,
It rests like a wild beast within its den.
And it can reach it—if not all desire

is vain! So at the foot of truth, like shoots,
our doubts spring up; this is a natural force
urging us to the top from height to height.”


-Dante, Paradiso
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

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