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idoron
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Post by idoron » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:39 pm

Well, I don't think I would go so far as to say it is too much, but I would say that at times it can interrupt the flow of reading. But what is great about it is that the way he presents it (usually) is consistent with the way one would percieve the surroundings were one in them.

I.e. when you come into a new place, the first thing most people do is look around and get their bearings. That is how Tolkien presents his descriptions (with a few exceptions).

I think it adds to the reading because its like <i>you</i> walked into the scene and experienced it.
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Post by Theremin » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:54 pm

Alas, I am defeated. I finished at around 10:00 on Saturday.
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?

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Post by Sam Gamgee » Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:55 pm

Yay for Theremin! So what did you think?

Glad you have a better opinion, Brian. Yeah, I know what you mean about Tolkien. He doesn't take the style of most modern authors, and it's fine not to particularly like it. But somehow, I don't think it could have been done any other way. It's so much like an epic poem presented in story form at times (less than the Sil, though) - it adds a kind of age and (like idoron said,) depth and meaning - like something beautiful that has cherished through many centuries rather than something brand new that was recently created according to the fickle fads of our time. If you get the analogy. I'm thinking of several things at once, so it's kind of muddled together, but one image to keep in mind is that of a building. More specifically, a church, just because they've been around for quite some time, and there has been a lot of time and energy spent in their creation. The modern church, with its accoustics, bright skylights, ampitheater seating for increased visibility, open space, typical wood and brick decorated walls, etc. certainly does have its practical advantages. But at the same time, there's something special about the old cathedrals with the stained glass, stone walls, elaborately carved statues, and center-front altar. I'm not trying to say that all modern fiction is stupid, ugly, and pointless (many times quite the contrary is true), but there's a quality about even Tolkien's somewhat archaic style that seems to drive deep into human culture through all civilizations. I just don't think you could use the face-paced, flashy modern writing style to illustrate what Tolkien intended to be a myth for England.

Those are just a few rambling thoughts. I don't know if they'll make sense to anyone else, and of course, his style still is a matter of personal opinion, but there's my two cents. Or fifty-four and a half cents, or however much that was. ;)
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Post by idoron » Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:13 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote: I'm not trying to say that all modern fiction is stupid, ugly, and pointless
But you did! :P

Just kidding. If any of you have the extended DVD of TT I suggest watching the additional features because there is some good discussion of the fact that Tolkien is not, by modern standards, a good (skilled) practicer of the craft of writing. (if this were a big JRRT board i would be <i>so</i> flamed...). And truth be told he isn't If you read FotR, TTT and RotK it should be clear. Examples:

Council of Elrond: how many characters do we meet for the first time who just talk talk talk? It's like a bad business meeting.

Fall of Isengard: Told by the hobbits in <i>flashback,</i> if you can believe that. <i>Flashback!</i>

Rotk: <b>200 pages</b> of falling action and appendicies! For crying out loud!

Anyway. One of the people interview in the TTx DVD features says something like "professional writers wouldn't do that. But it turns out professional writers don't know everything. Sometimes inspired amatures know something." Which is the story of my life. :wink:

{rant}Also, you should watch them because you will see they used mostly Unix/Linux and Apple computing technology in the making of the movies. Not Microsoft technology. At one point they even carried the directors cut of FotR around on an iPod.{/rant}
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Post by Bnielsen » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:37 pm

Oh, I definately agree, the books could not have been written any other way, becasue, and the most obvious reason, it WAS Tolkien who came up with them, and wrote them with much deep thought and study. It certainly will be read again multiple times by myself, and will still encourage others to read the series as well.
Last edited by Bnielsen on Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:42 am

Did Flo finish the Sil? What was Josh reading? I'm having to read Homer right now for the Oddysey project we're about to begin.
Steve 8)
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Post by idoron » Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:23 pm

I think Flo gave up on Sil.

Josh has put aside "Fairy Stores" because, well, he wasn't reading anything he didn't already know or couldn't discern from JRRTs writing. Maybe he didn't get far enough.

Josh has been reading the Sil again.
Last edited by idoron on Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:32 pm

Read on! (Bass: dum dum dum dum dum)
Read on! (Bass: dum dum dum dum dum)
I will read each day to... reach the....

Ok. Too much Kansas listening last night. Seriously, Josh, read on. Finish the thing. You need to read it. Right, Steve? Right. See, Steve agrees, and Steve is cool. Listen to the guy! Even if you think you know what he's saying, there's still the fact that Tolkien is saying it, and Tolkien may bring some insights on myth that just clarifies and expresses something you already knew, but in a new way. Right now, this Essay on Fairy Stories is making itself plain in pretty much all aspects of my life, from drama class to math. It's awesome. If you want to be a self-respecting Tolkien fan, you just have to read the whole thing.
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Post by idoron » Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:03 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:Right now, this Essay on Fairy Stories is making itself plain in pretty much all aspects of my life, from drama class to math.
Hmmm. Math as Myth. Interesting idea.
Sam Gamgee wrote:If you want to be a self-respecting Tolkien fan, you just have to read the whole thing.
I'm that not worried about losing my own respect for myself.

Is that right? Whatever.

I know who the tallest of the Children of Illuvatar is and what color Feanor's hair is, so I'm cool.
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Post by Bnielsen » Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:05 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:Read on! (Bass: dum dum dum dum dum)
Read on! (Bass: dum dum dum dum dum)
I will read each day to... reach the....

Ok. Too much Kansas listening last night.

Actually Sam, that was rather clever- good song too!
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:16 pm

Why thank you, Brian! Glad someone appreciates the excessive amount of time I wasted formatting. ;)

So, idoron, you can win any random Tolkien trivia competition - I think that's really cool, don't get me wrong. But - no offense - what you're saying sounds kind of arrogant to me. You can know all the trivia you want, but wouldn't you want to go by the author's own words in understanding the big ideas behind his work?
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By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

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Post by Theremin » Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:19 pm

idoron wrote:Math as Myth.
Have you ever tried implicit differentiation?
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?

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Sam Gamgee
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:28 pm

Yikes, that was the main section where I got my variable variables, functional variables, and constant variables all confused. But have you ever tried math in four dimensions? I'm not kidding - I saw God. It was beautiful!

Basically the reason for connecting math to secondary reality has to do with subcreation. I don't know that I could exactly explain it, but mathematics is a type of art. (not applied mathematics. strictly theoretical stuff which they rarely ever teach us, the losers. :bawling: you can't ever talk about the goos stuff until you get past the decade of shrapnel they teach you.)
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By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

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Post by Theremin » Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:29 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:Yikes, that was the main section where I got my variable variables, functional variables, and constant variables all confused. But have you ever tried math in four dimensions? I'm not kidding - I saw God. It was beautiful!

Basically the reason for connecting math to secondary reality has to do with subcreation. I don't know that I could exactly explain it, but mathematics is a type of art. (not applied mathematics. strictly theoretical stuff which they rarely ever teach us, the losers. :bawling: you can't ever talk about the goos stuff until you get past the decade of shrapnel they teach you.)
Have you ever tried tic tac toe in four dimensions? 3-dimensional (4x4x4, 3x3x3 sucks) is good and all, but it is really just a warm up for four dimensional (4x4x4x4). Cool stuff! :D
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?

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Post by Sam Gamgee » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:29 pm

That sounds really really cool!!! My teachers always joke about teaching us how to play n-dimensional parchesi (whatever that is!), but so far i've only learned 3D tick tack toe. It's too easy to win, though. :?
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

[url]http://www.ghfan.net[/url]

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