'Apostrophes?'

Moderators: MayorOfLongview, FredProgGH, Sam Gamgee, Bnielsen

User avatar
Theremin
Professional
Professional
Posts: 776
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:26 pm
Location: Upstairs
Contact:

'Apostrophes?'

Post by Theremin » Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:40 pm

I'm not sure if this is just a function of the particular version of the book I have, but I find it very strange; my copy of The Fellowship of the Ring does not use quotation marks (" ") to indicate dialogue, it uses apostrophes (' '). I know some of you are knowledgable to an encyclopedic degree on Tolkein; is there some linguistic reason that he does this? i seem to remember that a British copy of Stephen King's The Dead Zone that I bought at a garage sale did the same thing, but I think that my book is an American pressing. My copy (actually my brother's, mine are still packed up from before our move) is from a boxed set of all three and has a picture of movie Frodo holding the ring and looking concerned/bewildered on it. It is printed my the Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston - New York, and has the ISBN number (0-618-12903-0). Whats up?

PS, I just checked my copy of the Silmarillion; it does the same thing. It is Houghton Mifflin, Boston - New York, and has ISBN (0-618-12698-8).

PPS Wait a second, is it just because Tolkien was British?
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?

User avatar
Theremin
Professional
Professional
Posts: 776
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:26 pm
Location: Upstairs
Contact:

Post by Theremin » Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:42 pm

That 8) was supposed to be an "8" then a ")." :lol:
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?

User avatar
Sam Gamgee
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:27 pm
Location: The World of Ideas
Contact:

Post by Sam Gamgee » Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:46 pm

Every work of Tolkien I've seen does the ' thing rather than ". I think The Great Divorce had that as well, and that was by CS Lewis, of course. Perhaps it is just a british thing.
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

[url]http://www.ghfan.net[/url]

User avatar
Theremin
Professional
Professional
Posts: 776
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:26 pm
Location: Upstairs
Contact:

Post by Theremin » Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:33 am

After typing all that, I think I realized that at the last second. Oh well, typing practice 8) .
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?

User avatar
Reepicheep
Semi-Pro
Semi-Pro
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:27 am
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Contact:

Post by Reepicheep » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:03 am

Sam Gamgee wrote:Every work of Tolkien I've seen does the ' thing rather than ". I think The Great Divorce had that as well, and that was by CS Lewis, of course. Perhaps it is just a british thing.


Ahh! You've read the Great Divorce! That's one of my favorite books..(by Lewis) along with "Till We Have Faces"..
There is a Caedmon's Call song based on Great Divorce that I love.
Buster:"Sister is my new mother, Mother..."

User avatar
Sam Gamgee
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:27 pm
Location: The World of Ideas
Contact:

Post by Sam Gamgee » Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:36 pm

Haven't read the other one you spoke of, but the Great Divorce was very good. and very depressing at the same time. It really hurts to see yourself choosing hell, you know? ;) But hurts in a good way. Seeing the brilliance of truth often hurts one's eyes, as Plato would say.
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

[url]http://www.ghfan.net[/url]

User avatar
Bnielsen
Hammerhead
Hammerhead
Posts: 3849
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 4:26 am
Location: Spring City, Pennsylvania, USA
Contact:

Post by Bnielsen » Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:16 pm

I have his works by Del Ray, and the same thing occurs.... maybe its like colour instead of color, and odour instead of odor?
Brian Nielsen
GH Merch '09 - GH Roadie '05 - GH NEARFest Choir '03
Image

User avatar
MayorOfLongview
Hammerhead
Hammerhead
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:08 am
Contact:

Post by MayorOfLongview » Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:31 pm

Reepicheep wrote:
Sam Gamgee wrote:Every work of Tolkien I've seen does the ' thing rather than ". I think The Great Divorce had that as well, and that was by CS Lewis, of course. Perhaps it is just a british thing.


Ahh! You've read the Great Divorce! That's one of my favorite books..(by Lewis) along with "Till We Have Faces"..
There is a Caedmon's Call song based on Great Divorce that I love.


There's even a Glass Hammer song based inspired by The Great Divorce that Flo's never heard. Its called "The Morning Song". Sam, do you have an mp3 of that on your site?
Steve
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

User avatar
Reepicheep
Semi-Pro
Semi-Pro
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:27 am
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Contact:

Post by Reepicheep » Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:19 pm

Steph, you've GOT to read "Till we have faces"..it is SO good. It's a retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche (Mainly Psyche's sister actually)..That's all I'll say about it, because you've just got to go read it!
Buster:"Sister is my new mother, Mother..."

User avatar
Sam Gamgee
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:27 pm
Location: The World of Ideas
Contact:

Post by Sam Gamgee » Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:15 pm

I'll try to get around to it, Flo...

Morning Song was inspired by the Great Divorce?? Awesome! I never knew that!
Listen: http://www.ghfan.net/gh/audio/Morning_Song.mp3

Lyrics:

Feels like a summer morning
There's music in my heart
Why can't we sing together
Each unto his part

All creation singing

All mankind could know the story
All creation sing his glory
Forevermore - forevermore

Time to rise
Wake for the morning comes
Leave your cares behind

Sing of love
Love that lasts forever
When you wake to find

All creation singing

All mankind could know the story
All creation sing his glory
Forevermore - forevermore

Who wrote the song
That echoes in my heart
And made it
To linger

1. Surely He is good to all of us who seek a pure heart - who seek - to know the truth
2. All will be changed and all will be new - all will be forever made as one
3. Now I pray to you my Lord - When it comes - I'll be there - At your side - Forevermore
4. Sing aloud the truth in your heart - wake up - sing out - for the morning comes

There will come one final day
Every eye shall see
Truth and love will live as one
Wake for the morning comes

All mankind could know the story
All creation sing his glory
Forevermore - forevermore

That's been one of my favorite GH songs for a long time...
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

[url]http://www.ghfan.net[/url]

User avatar
MayorOfLongview
Hammerhead
Hammerhead
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:08 am
Contact:

Post by MayorOfLongview » Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:00 am

Sam Gamgee wrote:I'll try to get around to it, Flo...

Morning Song was inspired by the Great Divorce?? Awesome! I never knew that!
Listen: http://www.ghfan.net/gh/audio/Morning_Song.mp3

Lyrics:

Feels like a summer morning
There's music in my heart
Why can't we sing together
Each unto his part

All creation singing

All mankind could know the story
All creation sing his glory
Forevermore - forevermore

Time to rise
Wake for the morning comes
Leave your cares behind

Sing of love
Love that lasts forever
When you wake to find

All creation singing

All mankind could know the story
All creation sing his glory
Forevermore - forevermore

Who wrote the song
That echoes in my heart
And made it
To linger

1. Surely He is good to all of us who seek a pure heart - who seek - to know the truth
2. All will be changed and all will be new - all will be forever made as one
3. Now I pray to you my Lord - When it comes - I'll be there - At your side - Forevermore
4. Sing aloud the truth in your heart - wake up - sing out - for the morning comes

There will come one final day
Every eye shall see
Truth and love will live as one
Wake for the morning comes

All mankind could know the story
All creation sing his glory
Forevermore - forevermore

That's been one of my favorite GH songs for a long time...


Anyone else heard this yet?
Steve
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

King
Semi-Pro
Semi-Pro
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 3:49 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: 'Apostrophes?'

Post by King » Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:44 pm

Theremin wrote:My copy of The Fellowship of the Ring does not use quotation marks (" ") to indicate dialogue, it uses apostrophes (' '). I know some of you are knowledgable to an encyclopedic degree on Tolkein; is there some linguistic reason that he does this?


Ok, Im gonna take a shot at this because Tolkein's and everyone else's use of the (' ') rather than (" ") did not seem strange to me, and because no one else really gave a satisfying explanation. From what I understand, though I am no writing major, this is a fairly standard way of writing when quotations within dialogue are used. They are not called apostrophes, though you use the same key on the keyboard for them, they are called 'single quotes' or "double quotes" respectively.

It's kinda like nested parenthesis in math, yuck!! **quadratic equation comes to mind**

You will notice in LOtR that much of the book is dialogue, with characters often quoting third parties, and some narrative in between. For the narrative part of the book no quotes are needed; for dialogue single quotes are used to distinguish it from the narrative; for quotations of third parties by dialoguing characters double quotes are used to distinguish that from the dialogue. This makes it less confusing as to who is talking and you can't confuse (for example) Saruman's words quoted by Gandalf at the council of Elrond, to be stuff that Gandalf is actually thinking or saying. (Cause that would be pretty screwy if you couldn't tell the difference.) And, of course, very large pieces of quoted text are set up as block text and so are poems and songs.

So, no, it is not a British thing, it is just proper grammar and a way of not confusing your audience when you write dialogue.

Ok, :cackle: now that I have bored you all to sleep :zzz: I will shut up...but don't forget, it's all Theremin's fault for asking!!!! :cuckoo: (I think this is the longest post I've ever made on this forum)

User avatar
Sam Gamgee
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:27 pm
Location: The World of Ideas
Contact:

Post by Sam Gamgee » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:12 pm

Well said, King. **puts on her teacher glasses and pulls out the lecture blackboard** However, class, at least in the grammar they teach at American schools, *checks for proper term* double quotes are used initially for a dialogue, and then single quotes for when it's a quote within a quote. Tolkien does it the other way around, which is what we suspect is the British way.

The example dialogue, found on page 67, American style:
"Oh, no. The British are coming," said Fingolfin blandly.
"Aha, but, as you see, Fingles," said Sam, "they are not. That was about two hundred years ago. My gaffer always used to tell me, 'Ropes are awesome, you ninny.' Therefore, you must go and transfer 1 million lire into my bank account."
Fingolfin only rolled his eyes.


The example dialogue, found on page 4.567, Tolkien Style:
'Oh, dear. I am British,' observed the British Person.
'Ah, me. I observe so also,' observed his friend the British Cow. 'It's just as the americans always say: "The British are coming." Except this time they're already here.'
'But you are a cow. Say, what do you think about this mad cow disease?'
'Doesn't bother me. I'm a helicopter.'


Ta-Dah!
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

[url]http://www.ghfan.net[/url]

King
Semi-Pro
Semi-Pro
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 3:49 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Contact:

Post by King » Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:07 pm

Hmmm...good point Sam. LOL, I guess together we might actually figure something out eh?

User avatar
Sam Gamgee
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:27 pm
Location: The World of Ideas
Contact:

Post by Sam Gamgee » Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:44 pm

:eyebrow: I doubt it. Did you read my example sentences? ;)
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

[url]http://www.ghfan.net[/url]

Post Reply