Legolas and Gimli

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Legolas and Gimli

Post by idoron » Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:23 pm

Legolas and Gimli are an interesting pair. One can see their friendship as a long delayed reconciliation of the Elves and Dwarves. But one could also see it as just two individuals reconciled in adverse circumstances. What do we think? What function does their friendship play in the books? Gimli is named Elf-Friend as a result of their friendship. What does this mean in this context? Does anyone know if this title is bestowed by the Elves or by "common attribution?"

This question is opinion only, there is no textual discussion but I want to know what people think:

The tale of years states that Legolas and Gimli sail down Anduin "and so over Sea" but does not say to what end.

Question: Did Legolas and Gimli reach Valinor? If so, what are the implications? If not, what are the implications of that?
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Re: Legolas and Gimli

Post by MayorOfLongview » Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:46 pm

idoron wrote:Question: Did Legolas and Gimli reach Valinor? If so, what are the implications? If not, what are the implications of that?


I can't imagine Gimli being allowed into Valinor. But the ring-bearers were. I'll have to think on this one :)
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:45 pm

They would probably sail to Tol Eressëa (the Lonely Isle) - where else would they go? Is that officially considered part of Valinor? I thought it wasn't. I mean, still an interesting question, but I think it's an important distinction.
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Post by idoron » Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:19 pm

What makes this interesting is that Legolas is in the boat.

If they didn't get to Valinor, then Legolas would be left roaming the lands of ME forever. Unless he drowned at sea, which I doubt, knowing the qualities of elven boat building.

Legolas would have been denied entry to Valinor because Gimli was with him.

On to Gimli:
Mortals have to do something really special to be admitted. So did Gimli do something special enough? Lots of people found in the battle of the hornburg, pellenor and before the black gate. Would Gimli alone be granted passge based on that? But then again, he was named Elf-Friend, not to be taken lightly.

perhaps the reconcilliation would have been enough? The first step to the restoration, short-lived as it might be with the elves sailing to the west, of two kindreds long estranged. Also not to be taken lightly.

But, also to consider: There are elves in Valinor. Men have been there, but we don't know if they still are. Would it be just if no Dwarf had ever come to valinor as, at least, an ambassador if not a permanent resident?

I don't know off hand, but does anyone know <i>why</i> not dwarf has been to Valinor?
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:58 am

idoron wrote:On to Gimli:
Mortals have to do something really special to be admitted. So did Gimli do something special enough? Lots of people found in the battle of the hornburg, pellenor and before the black gate. Would Gimli alone be granted passge based on that? But then again, he was named Elf-Friend, not to be taken lightly.
I don't know off hand, but does anyone know <i>why</i> not dwarf has been to Valinor?


I'd say if Gimli could get in based on his deeds during the fellowhship - then surely Aragorn could have gotten in. And that being the case, Arwen could have returned with him. Surely this is vexing.
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:49 pm

But Aragorn has to stay and rule Middle Earth and bring peace and order. Going to Valinor is not his "fate" or "calling" or whatever you want to call it. Gimli is under no such obligation.
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:37 am

Sam Gamgee wrote:But Aragorn has to stay and rule Middle Earth and bring peace and order. Going to Valinor is not his "fate" or "calling" or whatever you want to call it. Gimli is under no such obligation.


Sam was Mayor of the Shire - but he took the ship and left didn't he? Bottom-line, mortals aren't supposed to go there. Right?
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Post by idoron » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:35 pm

A few mortals do go there.

Sam's actual fate is not stated "canonically." His journey over the sea is presented as "legend." Anyway, he would have left after his Shire-ly obligations were fufilled. After Rose dies.

I agree with Sam, Aragorn and Arwen are fated to restore the rule of Kings in ME.

Here is the "But." In the days before the "moral" not physical fall of Numenor the Kings would depose to their heirs when their heirs came to their prime, instead of remaining king to their death. If Aragorn had done that, as was the custom in Numenor, he and Arwen could, if granted passage on the same grounds as Gimli, have gone to Valinor.

What about Legolas, would he have been denied passage for Gimli's sake?
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:50 am

idoron wrote:A few mortals do go there.


Here is the "But." In the days before the "moral" not physical fall of Numenor the Kings would depose to their heirs when their heirs came to their prime, instead of remaining king to their death. If Aragorn had done that, as was the custom in Numenor, he and Arwen could, if granted passage on the same grounds as Gimli, have gone to Valinor.



Exactly! He coud have been co-regent with his son until he was established. Then what would have kept him from returning Arwen to her people himself? A ban on mortals?
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Post by idoron » Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:32 am

Well, of course, he actually may not want to go.

Let's not forget that death is only seen as "bad" in ME because of Melkor and Sauron.

Maybe he knew his time had come and was ready to go.

Also, you can only get to Valinor with the consent of the Valar, so even if there was no ban, per se, they still might withhold passage because passage to Valinor was not Aragorn's "fate."

But we still haven't decided if Legolas and/or Gimli ever got there. Steve thinks there was a ban on mortals so Gimli didn't make it. So did the Valar turn away Legolas as well? Of did Gimli and Legolas not even bother sailing west? Did they just find a tropical isle somewhere where they could bask in the sun sipping Pina Colada? ("I've had 3 already this morning." "I've had 4!")
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Post by Bnielsen » Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:51 pm

idoron wrote: Did they just find a tropical isle somewhere where they could bask in the sun sipping Pina Colada? ("I've had 3 already this morning." "I've had 4!")



....But mine was in a larger glass!

....it still only counts as one!
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Post by idoron » Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:40 pm

Well, i guess I will venture an opinion on this matter, since we have gotten away from it.

The sentimentalist in me (he doesn't get much time) wants them to make it to Valinor.

The Tolkien Scholar in me suspects that Tolkien hadn't decided for certain or didn't want to decide.

The Tolkien Fan in me doesn't care. My favorite facet of Tolkien's writing is the complexity of "success" which usually results in some sort of bittersweet victory or strangely profound loss accompanied by joy. What is important is that Gimli and Legolas sailed out of Anduin before Gimli died. Just the two of them, in a small boat. According to my math Gimli was nearing his life expectancy and they saw fit to leave together rather than live out their time in a changing world. Maybe is was to seek temporary respite for Gimli in Valinor, an attempt to at last bring one of the Naugrim to the Undying Lands, though not forever. Maybe it was two friends knowing the end was near, seeking one final communion.

Almost brings a tear to the eye of the sentamentalist in me.
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Post by idoron » Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:49 pm

No one interested in Legolas and Gimli I guess. I'll have to come up with something else. Something <b>spectacular!</b>
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Post by Theremin » Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:56 am

I read the part in the index. Yeah.
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:39 am

idoron wrote:The sentimentalist in me (he doesn't get much time) wants them to make it to Valinor.


Well, here is your out. We know of the events in Valinor through the Sil. Elves that came to Middle-earth told the story? After the elves began returning though, no word comes from Valinor. All we know of those going over are the tales of those leaving. The Return and its appendixes were written by those left behind. Who is to say that Legolas and Gimli made it only so far as the out islands of Middle-earth. And wasn't there a protective ring of islands near Vailinor? We have no way of know if he even left with Legolas. It was just a rumor.
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