The Silmarillion

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Which of Tolkien's works is best?

Lord of the Rings
8
62%
The Silmarillion
4
31%
The Unfinished Tales
0
No votes
The Hobbit
1
8%
The Lost Tales
0
No votes
The Lays of Beleriand
0
No votes
Roverandom
0
No votes
Famer Giles of Ham/The Smith of Woodton Major
0
No votes
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
0
No votes
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 13

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Sam Gamgee
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:35 pm

I know the dwarves used cirth. But I meant the runes that only dwarves used, like the ones Tolkien took almost directly from Viking runes (whihc I also happen to know). Like the ones on the map on the hobbit. They look kind of the same, maybe, but the cirth has a lot more letters, and the Anglo-Saxonish alphabet also has a lot entirely separate letters. But yes, they do share some, and yes, they are completely different.

Ohhhh, that's an oak! I never really paid attention. I was just looking at the cirth letters and thinking, "Dang, I can't translate them because I never learned the cirth. :(" But seriously, what kind of self-respecting Tolkien freak doesn't know Cirth? I'll have to work on that one.

BTW - have you ever seen the hobbit movie? The 'moon letters' simply say "five feet high the door and three may walk abreast", while the runes that have been there all along read "stand on the first step when the thrush knocks, and the last rays of the setting sun of Durin's day shall shine upon the keyhold" (my rough paraphrase, of course). They mixed them up because they didn't even bother to do enough research to learn runes!
(Of course, Bakshi gets the prize for being lazy in research, with "Seleborn", just to mention one...)

Huh? What couplet now?
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

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idoron
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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:35 am

Sam Gamgee wrote:I know the dwarves used cirth. But I meant the runes that only dwarves used, like the ones Tolkien took almost directly from Viking runes (whihc I also happen to know). Like the ones on the map on the hobbit...
Well, that is actually sort of an anachronism. Like many of the differences between the Hobbit and LotR, the difference between the Runes of Thorin's map and the Cirth is a matter of maturity. The runes in the Hobbit are exactly Norse/Germanic runes, which JRRT knew quite well (being a professor of dusty old languages and literature).

The Cirth we influenced by them (duh), but it appears from JRRTs writing around the Cirth that they were, at the time of the writing of LotR, intended to be the only/primary dwarvish method of writing (though they also used the tengwar). The dwarves adopted the Cirth quite readily and utilized and modified them extensively, and all inscriptions in middle earth made by dwarves are either Angerthas Moria or Angerthas Erebor (two modes of Cirth). The only exceptions are the Map and a few places in the Book of Marzubal. Since LotR was written later and "more seriously" (i.e. not ending up as a children's book) most chalk this up to "getting ahead of oneself."
Sam Gamgee wrote:But seriously, what kind of self-respecting Tolkien freak doesn't know Cirth? I'll have to work on that one.
Good luck. I'm still working on it. I would love to discuss it with you (on another thread) when you do, there is a lot to be done on it.
Sam Gamgee wrote:BTW - have you ever seen the hobbit movie?
Of course. And the LotR cartoons. I like the battle of 5 armies: looks like a Flea Rave.
Sam Gamgee wrote:Huh? What couplet now?
Oh, must have missed it. I challenged you to translate my name and identify the couplet in my signature (without doing a web search)
Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold;
When woodland halls are green and cool, and wind is in the West

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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:40 pm

Oak! Oakes! That took me way too long. It all makes sense now.

No, acutally, the hobbit runes were different from the historical anglo-saxon runes. I know both. many letters are in common, like f, u, th, a, r, k, t, etc... (it is called the futhark, btw) There are differences though: o, p, w, l i think, as well as dipthongs. Tolkien added a few, also, like j, z, and y.

Oh, yes, I see now. that couplet. mmm... I don't know. It sounds beren/luthienish. But they didn't go west, they stayed on Middle Earth. Unless it's to the west of middle earth.

Sorry, I don't know. :(
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

[url]http://www.ghfan.net[/url]

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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:06 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:Oh, yes, I see now. that couplet. mmm... I don't know. It sounds beren/luthienish. But they didn't go west, they stayed on Middle Earth. Unless it's to the west of middle earth.Sorry, I don't know. :(
Think Tree.
Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold;
When woodland halls are green and cool, and wind is in the West

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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:11 pm

You sure do have a theme going on here. Tree... tree..
Well, there's Teliperon and Laurelin, but they're not oaks, and I don't think they talk to each other about moving west, since they're in valinor. and they're trees.

Maybe a white tree of Gondor, but I don't think any of them were that famous.

Maybe something having to do with Elendil and the tree from Numenor, but he escapes east, not west.

It could be something entish...

It's not helping me that there are about 50 billion and a half stories regarding trees!

But my last guess is that it's from the Ent Song. Yes! That must be it. The ents and the entwives... I'm way off, aren't I?
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:16 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:You sure do have a theme going on here. Tree... tree..

But my last guess is that it's from the Ent Song. Yes! That must be it. The ents and the entwives... I'm way off, aren't I?
Well, you know, "Oakes." I think it is apropos.

It is the Song of the Entwives, the last Stanza, they sing together.

Talk about bittersweet, that is sad song.
Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold;
When woodland halls are green and cool, and wind is in the West

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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:17 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:Well, there's Teliperon and Laurelin, but they're not oaks, and I don't think they talk to each other about moving west, since they're in valinor. and they're trees.
And dead.

(Some trees can talk though, eh?)
Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold;
When woodland halls are green and cool, and wind is in the West

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Post by Sam Gamgee » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:23 pm

They weren't always dead. Maybe... maybe they did speak to each other. I mean, if I were a tree, i might get kinda bored of just sitting there. Talking might be kind of nice. "Yo Laurelin, what's up?" "Taliquentil!" "Hahaha..." (even trees can make dad/philosopher level jokes) Maybe they even exchanged a few words as ungoliant was beginning to kill them. "Hey, Teliperon! I'm not dead yet!" "I feel happy!" "I'm going to go for a walk-" at which point their lives were tragically cut short.

Still, even if these imagined conversations did take place, this was not the couplet you were speaking of.
[color=#ff6600][i]Workings of man crying out from the fires set aflame
By his blindness to see that the warmth of his being
Is promised for his seeing, his reaching so clearly[/i][/color]

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Post by idoron » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:31 pm

Sam Gamgee wrote:They weren't always dead. Maybe... maybe they did speak to each other. I mean, if I were a tree, i might get kinda bored of just sitting there. Talking might be kind of nice. "Yo Laurelin, what's up?" "Taliquentil!" "Hahaha..."
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, goodness, that is a good one.
Sam Gamgee wrote:Maybe they even exchanged a few words as ungoliant was beginning to kill them. "Hey, Teliperon! I'm not dead yet!" "I feel happy!" "I'm going to go for a walk-" at which point their lives were tragically cut short.
Ungoliant: 'e says 'e's not dead.
Morgoth: Can you hang on a minute? 'e will be soon.
Ungoliant: I've got to get round to Formenos, they lost 9 today.
Morgoth: Isn't there something you can do?
Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold;
When woodland halls are green and cool, and wind is in the West

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Post by Theremin » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:33 am

:lol: My family and I just watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail last night; funny stuff...
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused
Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used
Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise
If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?

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