Sam Sails to the West....

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Post by SuperTed » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:18 pm

Excellent! It's our very own Spiritual Discussion thread a la Neal Morse! :roll:

I think, bearing in mind the no politics and/or religion convention, that this discussion has reached an end.

Pity, I was enjoying the Tolkien stuff but there you go...
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:24 pm

Its probably best we don't allow an advantist to pit himself agin' a catholic. That can't go anywhere good! Now, get a muslim in here and we'll have a good go of it. Otherwise, lets not 'challenge' each other to rethink our views on the Bible. Everyone knows that we Presbyterians have it right any how.
Let's move on now :)
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Post by Forgotten One » Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:20 pm

Such a pity....there is so much personal benefit that can come from being "challenged". We have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
I had the crazy notion this was a group of free thinking people open to challenge their thinking on any subject and discuss it. I was wrong. I am sorry.

And for the record, if anyone cares, I was/am not "pitching" any denomination. I belong to none. I was only responding to Biblical/Spiritual themes already under discussion in this thread.

Love to all...and moving on :)
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:45 pm

Forgotten One wrote:I had the crazy notion this was a group of free thinking people open to challenge their thinking on any subject and discuss it. I was wrong. I am sorry.

Love to all...and moving on :)


Please feel free to challenge our thinking on prog and hobbits. Just be kind when you do it! :lol: 8)
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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Post by Sam Gamgee » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:24 pm

This has nothing to do with whether we want to be challenged or seek the truth or not, or whether we are open, free thinking people. Believe me, it is taking every ounce of self-control I have to be a responsible moderator here and not reply. Every ounce. Would you stop tempting me? "Get behind me, Satan!" (ok, don't take that last common too seriously. :lol:)

The fact is, internet forums are almost always the wrong place to pursue ecumenical unity or a greater understanding of Scripture and tradition. I may not be very wise or advanced in years, but I've had at least enough experience to understand that these kinds of things almost never end well and the potential new counterarguments we've invented are not beneficial enough to outweigh the division we've caused among ourselves in the process. And we're never going to advance anywhere in agreement. People come here to share in their rare love of Glass Hammer - we're looking for solidarity, not a very controversial theological (or political) discussion. (Yes, we've closed down threads that were getting too political too.)

Granted, deep theological discussions are very important - I am not trying to belittle the topic of conversation here. I love to engage in them myself whenever I can. But not here. So just because we don't talk about them here doesn't mean it's not an issue, it's not worthy of our time, or we don't care.

Was this thread already theological? Yeah, somewhat, but on the broad scale level of the morality framework in Tolkien. Once we start getting into the details of Scripture, though, the discussion becomes very exclusive to non-Christians and starts to get so absorbed in the tiny details that it all shatters and fragments into a thousand pieces (see the "Morality in Middle Earth" thread for an example of a failed discussion that fragmented drastically to no benefit of either party. But I actually won the Fëanor conversation so that's all good. ;) :lol:). So we can talk broad theology related to Tolkien, but we have to be careful to remain in fairly neutral, commonly accepted moral territory. (This is why it would be a bad idea to start a thread asking whether Elves used natural family planning or birth control to prevent their race from becomming as numerous as rabbits due to their millenia of reproductive maturity. Baaaaad idea. Something like free will and the Ring or death and Valinor is a little bit less of a deliberate command to "fire at will!")

Does that make any more sense to you? I'm trying to articulate myself without launching a counterattack or devaluing theological discussion in different context, but i'm not sure if it worked.
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Post by Forgotten One » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:22 pm

we're looking for solidarity, not a very controversial theological (or political) discussion


Yes I think you have made that quite clear. Don't bring up anything specific that might be "disagreable" or exclusive to someone. Like I said, I took it for granted from some of the other discussions that this type of exchange would be acceptable. My bad. I am used to a more direct approach and find factual "challenge" to my thinking refreshing.

The fact is, internet forums are almost always the wrong place to pursue ecumenical unity or a greater understanding of Scripture and tradition


I am certainly not pursuing "ecumenical unity" at all. I regard it as dangerous. I have not a high opinion of solidarity (in this context) either. Sheep tend to run over a cliff if one does, and humans are much the same.
Greater understanding of Scripture? Yes! Tradition? No! I have no use for traditions...at least in the context of religion/spiritual matters. I thought I made that quite clear.


I may not be very wise or advanced in years, but I've had at least enough experience to understand that these kinds of things almost never end well and the potential new counterarguments we've invented are not beneficial enough to outweigh the division we've caused among ourselves in the process


Well I am advanced in years and some experience and "inventing counterarguments" was never my intent. I am sorry to bring it up once again since we are not to discuss the Bible but I prefer to stick with plain Scripture in this context. Again, in this context, the inventions and thoughts of man have no weight nor value when measured to the unvarnished Word of God unless of course they reflect it. :)

As for division, it is unavoidable. I do not fear it. Approaching matters of Spirtual nature with the methods of an ostritch will benefit no one either.
That being said, it was not my intent to cause division. Rather question an idea that was stated as a "fact" and one I know to be prevelant in almost all religions. I am not one to be satisfied with a concensus of opinion on spiritual matters or the status quo. If no questions are raised, nothing much is learned. If my soul is truly immortal I would prefer that someone step up and have the courage to show me that from the Word...and vise versa. In fact I'd welcome that kind of knowledge. I see nothing to fear from it. I know what I have found and was simply sharing it.

My age and experience tell me this particular subject touches the cornerstone of many false teachings and reactions to subdue that discussion are the norm in any enviroment....even at church. Many fear the erosion of traditions & teachings they hold dear and the changes such understanding might bring.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful response. Now on with GH solidarity :)
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Post by Bozo » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:37 am

Well Sorry Forgotten One but for me this is preaching and I must agree withh Sam in all points. This is a free world so lets use this freedom to love the music from GH and the opinion from each other not to fight wordbattles that nowone can winn.
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Post by Bnielsen » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:47 am

Anyway- So sam sails to the west and ....
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Post by MayorOfLongview » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:03 am

If my soul is truly immortal I would prefer that someone step up and have the courage to show me that from the Word...and vise versa.

Okay - for the sake of proving Sam's point, and answering your question -I will make one more post and invite you to counter it. But only one. I won't debate you. Here is scripture regarding your querry...
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I might be wrong, but I'm going to assume that still doesn't answer your question. If it does, then glory! If not, Sam's point is made. Each side would use scripture to make its point and the debate would continue without end - everlasting, so to speak.
8)
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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Post by Forgotten One » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:28 am

Thank you for that excellent Scripture Steve. You have touched on something of great importance!

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
Psa 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

Nowhere does the Bible speak of humanity possessing an innately immortal soul, but it plainly teaches that the soul that sins is destined to die.


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

According to the Word, eternal life will be the reward for those who are righteous. The wicked will not see eternal life, but eternal death, they will not have life.
The verse you cited clearly indicates a “qualification”….”…whosoever believeth in Him…” NOT everyone regardless of belief.


More…

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Clearly there are conditions to receiving the gift of immortality, we are not born immortal, in fact we are destined for eternal death, yet we can receive that LIFE through Him, AT THAT DAY. He gives the gift of eternal life to HIS SHEEP, not the unbelievers (goats).

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath… Rom 2:6-8

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city


More regarding immortality….

But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. 1st Tim 6:11-16


If God only has immortality, as the Scripture states, then we do not have it, at least not until our resurrection, when we will again be given access to the tree of life, (like Adam &Eve)and clearly the unrepentant, the wicked do not receive that gift.

Thank you for sharing that verse Steve. It is one of the best verses in the entire Word in that it shows that Christ made possible by his death a gift, ETERNAL LIFE, which we do not now have, IF we will only choose to receive it, it will be ours in that day when He comes for his own.

It is not my puprose to disagree with Sam or to take sides with anyone, or to have others side with me. It is not my wish to engage in a war of words or engage in a popularity contest.
It is my intention to challenge all (myself included) to give evidence for their beliefs and study the Word carefully for ourselves that we may not be fooled by spurious doctrines and the Evil One who said "Ye shall not surely die".

"Ye shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall make you FREE" - John 8:32
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Post by FredProgGH » Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:06 am

Well, there ya go.
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Post by SuperTed » Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:38 am

FredProgGH wrote:Well, there ya go.


You know something, Fred? You talk too much! :lol:
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Post by Sam Gamgee » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:59 pm

And the thread is destroyed, Sam dies, and his soul? Does it live on? Will it be free from the torments of hell or nothingness of being blotted out from exsistence? Or will he be united with God in a beaitific vision for all eternity while souls of the evil vanish from the face of all reality?

To find out, stay tuned - death's just around the corner!

(Till then, though, let's refrain from this discussion here. You want to talk about it, do it with PMing.)
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Post by Bnielsen » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:37 pm

/holy flame wars
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Post by Bozo » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:59 pm

Well Sams soul never died it lives in our hearts....
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